index
property 441 M. C. : Two, both of them, both of them have been there for, oh dear me, how long, over a
hundred years. I don't know very many are. Now this is a picture, this is a picture of the
lake out there all the way around. I think that almost all of those are of the lake.
L. L. : This is Don's summer lake, or summer house on the lake?
M. C. : Oh yes, it's right on the lake. You can just look through the windows and see that,
and see those, if you want to just brush through there, if you have time enough to do it,just
look through and you can see... Here's Don and Marilyn [Don's wife], here. These are all
these last years pictures, and I don't intend to put them in. But, but here you can see the,
what the lake itself is like. I'm looking at. Well, you can see it here. Uh, this is right in
front of their house. There, this is a, at their house also. They have a lot of memorabilia,
see, "Seattle," "Seattle." [Margaret is pointing to pictures of wooden letters that spell out
"Seattle" which are placed in the yard of her son's summer home.] And here, th, these
pictures are, that's all of their house.
L. L. : And how long was this property in your family?
M. C. : Pres, since territorial days, you figure that out. I don't know how long it's been. He can
tell you all that, he's got it all down.
[see photocopies 1-3 for a copy of the original deed (1892) and a copy of the original plot
of land]
L. L. : And from what side of the family was this, was the land...?
M. C. ; The Gibbons
L. L. : The Gibbons
M. C. : My mother's family, my mother's. See, you can even see, in the house, you can see,
uh, uh, [the lake]...
end Tape 4. side A
Tape 4
side B
M. C. : Isn't there a picture there of an inside of a house and you see through the windows,
you see the lake [pointing to a picture]?
L. L. : It's right here I think.
M. C. : Yes, those are they, all of them. Now that was, I told you that the deed has, was signed by
President Harrison, so it's been in the family for years.
L. L. : Does Don have a copy of the deed?
M. C. : I don't know if he has or not. If he doesn't, he ought to have, 'cause he's a great stickier
for going back and getting, you know, all the...
L. L. : That would be nice to get, uh, a copy of that also.
M. C. : Yes, that would be interesting. I haven't seen it for many, many years.
husband 012 L. L. : Uh, what about your early relationship with your husband? How was, how were, um...?
M. C. : It was always a very good relationship.
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work
children
L. L. : Were you both working?
018 M. C. : We were both working? No, I didn't work. I didn't work, I was home with the
children
L. L. : How long, how much longer...
M. C. : I went back to work in the 40's, about '40, I think'42 was the first time I went back to
work. Other than that, I was home with the children.
L. L. : Do you have fond memories of your children growing up?
M. C. : I beg your pardon.
L. L. : Do you have fond memories of your children growing up?
022 M. C. : Of my children growing up? Oh yes, I had fond memories. I had, 'corse with Marilyn
it was different, with my daughter because she was handicapped and the only thing she ever
wanted to do was to go outside. And she would, if there was a door lose or a window, oh,
you know, unlocked, why, she took advantage of it. It's, uh, it's an entirely different life
you lead when you have anyone that's handicapped, anyone, no matter how they're
handicapped. It's still, uh, tremendous drain on the family,
education 030 L. L. : Did she, did she attend, uh, public school.
M. C. : Oh no, they had nothing for public schools at that age at that time, nothing. I went over to
West Seattle one time to see an experimental program that they had when she was small.
But it never would have worked for her because they had children crawling on the floor,
you know, that were 8 or 10 years old, and they had children that were blind all put in the
same class. But that, that wasn't for her, she had too much, uh, well, what will I call it, she
had too much ambition to be doing something.
L. L. : How did you handle her schooling then?
M. C. : How did I handle her what?
L. L. : Her schooling.
M. C. : screening?
L. L. : schooling.
M. C. : Oh, her schooling. Well, she didn't have as much as I would have like to have had for her.
The closest school was Santa Barbara, California, and at that time, uh, it was 2 thousand a
month. That would be about 5 thousand at least now, or better. There was one on
Vancouver Island, and that was equally high. So, you did the best you could.
L. L. : Did you teach her at home?
Alzheimers 048 M. C. : Yes, what she learned. But it was easy for her, uh, later to kind of lose it. And the doctor
says now that she has, uh, the beginning ofAlzheimer's. So, you see, there is, uh, and if
there, at the time, I was reasoning, if there is a dysfunction somewhere in the brain, you
can, you know, expe, expect, uh, it's never going to be really normal.
L. L. : How was that like for you raising her though, were people, did people give you rude looks
ever?
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index
conflict
M. C. : Did I what?
053 L. L. : Were people ever rude to you when you had Marilyn with you? Like rude comments or...
M. C. : Oh, many people do, but then, to me, she's, she was always kind of a, a, a pretty little girl.
I've got lots and lots of pictures of her, oodles of 'em. I'll, I'll show you one of them when
she was about 5 years old. [Margaret takes me into the other room to see the pictures of
her daughter-one when she was about 5, and two when she was about 20 or 30. he first
one of these was taken in Hawaii when Margaret and Marilyn when there together. The
other picture is a portrait of Marilyn, and when I was looking at this picture, Margaret
explained that Marilyn is a devout Christian.]
[We sit back down and we begin to talk about the procession of the rest of the interviews.]
M. C. : ...[will we] have another appointment?
L. L. : Probably, one, probably one more interview and then I'll have another appointment to go
over what I've done.
M. C. : When do, when do you finish it? When are you supposed to be through with it?
L. L. : Um, by the end of May, so I'm ahead of my schedule right now.
M. C. : But, you'll be a very busy young lady. I know it. What are you going to do when you fi,
finish school this summer? [Margaret and I begin to talk about my summer plans.]...
[Margaret recites a poem]... and I couldn't remember who wrote but, but those words have
a gr, great deal of effect on me.
L. L. : Can you repeat the poem again?
poetry 065 M. C. : "Life is real, life is earnest,
And the grave is not its goal.
Once thou art to dust returnefh,
Was not spoken of the soul."
See, the more you repeat it, the more you think about it. And I don't know that's a well-
known artist, and I learned that in high school. And, uh, and every once in a while, you
see, "Life is real, life is earnest, and the grave is not its goal." So, when you begin life,
you don't think of death. "Dust thou art, to dust retwneth, was not spoken of the soul."
And that's tme. Well...
L. L. : That's nice. I like that.
death/mother 079 M. C. : I like it too because there's so much good in it. Your body could be cremated, and you
could go. And I've been at the death-side, the bedside of people dying, many people, even
here, where they call me in when someone was dying. And, wa, I was with my mother, and
she had the most beautiful death I ever saw. Beautiful! She sat up in bed before hand, and
she said, "Oh, I'm so, I see my folks on the other side." And she said, "Oh, I'm so anxious
to be with them." Well, the doctor told me to find her a nursing home, but I didn't look for
a nursing home. God was speaking to me as well as to her. And He was welcoming her
home, and it was such a wonderful, beautiful feeling. And when I thought, think of this
"Dust thou art," so your body could be cremated, after all it's only the place in which your
soul lives. And you soul is what matters. Well, it's, it's interesting.
[see slide 9 for a picture of Margaret's bother a short while before her death in 1960]
L. L. : How long was your mother living with you before she passed away?
M. C. : Well, off and on for about 25 years, 'cause I told you that shortly after my father died, you
know, she had, uh...
50
index#
L. L. : typhoid...
typhoici/mother 094 M. C. : Typhoid fever, you're right. See I'm losing me grasp on important words.
L. L. : I think you're doing great, so...
M. C.:But I, at, now, sitting at her bedside, when she passed away, I could almost see her soul on
wings. You know, it, because her breath was just fluttering, fluttering, like the light on a
candle. And then it went out. In other words, it had left her body. It was interesting.
L. L. : We're you scared at all?
M. C. : No, I wasn't scared, no, never. I just had a feeling of peace, peace.
L. L. : We're you the only one with her at the time?
pneumonia 104 M. C. : At the time, I was the only one in the hospital room with her. She had, she had taken
pneumonia. And, uh, the called me from school, and I went immediately, and the ladies
were so nice at the church, or at the hospital. The nurses were so lovely. There was an
older woman and she came, I went out to tell them that my mother had passed away, and
the nurse took me in her arms, and she, she tried to console me. And I said, "It's all right."
I said, "She's home at last." And it was all right. It's wonderful. So, uh, uh death has
always been, you know, nothing, nothing, uh, distraught about it, nothing unusual; it's, it's
been very pleasant. And I think you can make it pleasant. It's, it's, it's difficult to take,
but it's the void you feel actually. It's not how your parent may feel. And I think we
should be grateful that they are relieved of pain and sufifermg. God gives you other
blessings to take over. It's a wonderful feeling. Well, and it's just like now, I've given all
my books away; I've given almost all my memorabilia away. And, uh,uh,I, I, as far as
being advanced in years, who knows? You might live 10 years more, and you might live
only a day, and maybe not much, so we live it the best we know how.
L. L. : Do you think your mother helped you learn that lesson?
friends 132 M. C. : Oh, yes she did. She was a veiy kind, understanding person. Always available, always
supportive, always eager to help someone else. Everyone. She was very much loved by
her friends. And it taught me to be friendly. You can't expect to have friends if you're not
a good friend.
quote 135 "True friends are like diamonds, precious and rare. False ones like autumn leaves,
found everywhere."
L. L. : Did you write that?
M. C. : No I didn't write it. That was in my mother's high school, well, what'll I call it? At that
time, they, they had books that they passed around. Like, now, you have yearbooks. But,
the, uh, in that day, the had little velvet colored, or velvet, velvet bound little books. And
you had all kinds of little sayings that they wrote about you, you're friends did.
mother 146 L. L. : What was it like living with her for those 20 or 25 years?
M. C. : Beg your pardon.
L. L. : What was it like living with your mother for that period of time?
M. C. : Oh, oh it was always a peaceful, quiet time. She enjoyed her children. She rocked them a
lot. As a little girl, we were always rocked a lot.
L. L. : What about, um, when she was older, when she was sick, when she moved in with you?
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inlaws
M. C. : Well, she was always very supportive; whatever you were doing, she always tried to help in
any way she could.
L. L. : Did you ever feel resentful or... Did you ever feel resentful?
M. C. : Oh, her resentful, oh...
L. L. : Did you feel resentful about her?
M. C. : Oh, no, never, never. She was always the epitome of kindness. Never was I ever, the
word "resentful" never came up in our family.
L. L. : Can you remember a time when she helped you through something, when you were older?
M. C. : Now, I'm not getting that.
L. L. : Can you remember a time when maybe she helped you through a problem or something
when you were older?
M. C. : Well, she never asked, uh, offered advice for one thing. Everything was open,but not for
advice. She would, she would tell you about things, but, but you never felt that they were
in a resentful, governing way of any sort. She was just the opposite of this May, this, uh,
si, principal that was so demanding in everything. And you learn that from other people,
uh, that it's better to, uh, go gently forward when you can, and not to hurt other people, to
be kind. I think that's probably the biggest attribute is kindness we have because kindness
leads to love, and love, whether it's your neighbor, your friend, you family, makes no
difference. And, its, as I look at little children, I think, well, I could love most any child. It
all depends, I think, a great deal of it on your early training.
180 L. L. : How did your husband get along with your mother?
M. C. : Oh, he got along with her very well. He got along better with my mother than he did with
his own, much better. His own would tell him what to do, and he resent that. My mother
would never tell anyone what to do.
L.L.: How did you get along with your husband's parents?
conflict/daughter 202
M. C. : I got along very well with them, uh, in other words, they though a great deal of me. His,
uh, he had a stepfather, and his stepfather was an angel, there's not doubt about it. Now,
the thing that, that always bothered, uh, me, to some degree, was the fact that his mother
had left his father or his father had left her, I don't know how it was. But anyway, in,
where he was raised back East, and, uh, he never saw his father again. And I think that
somewhat, that, that relieved him of being the best kind of father that he should have been
and wasn't. And we, uh, how do we know how different, uh, times in life affect children
in, uh, some way that warps their character.
Now you see, he was never able to accept his daughter; that was a hardship for him.
L. L. : Was he embarrassed of her, or...
M. C. : No, not so much I don't think as embarrassed, as if, uh, this obligation is yours. You blow,
and he was disinterested.
L. L. : Did he feel like she was his daughter, or..?
M. C. : Well, he knew, I know at the end he did because, uh, oh he called me like on Mother's day
and to tell me what a wonderful mother I was to my children, but he never admitted that he
wasn't that kind of a father. And it is a, it is an awful blow when you have to take a blow
52
index #
like that. It's something that is with you always, and you never get rid of it. And the
majority of women, and I know all kinds of them that have had, uh, difficulty with children,
uh, life is not always pleasant. And, uh, uh, it's very difficult for a man whether it's a man's
pride or what, I don't know and who knows? We don't know, so there's no use in
condemning people. But I do know that while I never condemned him, I never, in any way,
I would make suggestions, but I do know that if you do what is right God has so many
blessings for you that you're glad you had to take this rugged trail, and win your way.
Who is it that, uh, Albert Frost says, "Two roads verged in a coming wood, I took the one
less traveled by, and thereby, lies all the difference" And that's tme, very true.
religion 230 And I like to think it's true because I know from experience that if I ever got into a
bind, not, I don't know how religious you are, if you go to church, if you, uh, are a
Christian, you have probably similar faith. Because never let it be, a shadow that it'll, it'll
see you through, steadfast. And, and, and from unseen ways, the, the miracles that
happened to me I couldn't, you couldn't believe it. One day I was in a church group, uh, a
small study group, and a young man said to me, "Margaret, do you believe in miracles?" I
said " Yes, I do." And he said, " Well, tell me about some of them," Well I told him only
about one, but I do believe in miracles because God works miracles.
L. L. : What was the miracle that you told him about?
M. C. : Well, the one I told him about was the fact that when I was a small child, I, uh, not when I
was little, I, uh, must have been about 5, and I had a growth on my finger. Fact, and it, it,
I have a, a scar there now where it was taken off. But, and my folks had taken me to the
doctor several times. Now he didn't know what it was or what was causing it. And,years
later, I woke up and I suppose it had been over a breach of time when this had disappeared.
And it wasn't there any longer, and I couldn't believe it. Be, because I had it removed
once, and uh, and it grew, and it was no longer there. And, now if that wasn't a miracle,
after all this doctor's appointments and having it removed and doing massage, and I
remember, the, uh, the dentist, or the dentist, the doctor even used an electric needle to try
to get rid of it. And nothing got rid of that. And all of a sudden it was gone. To me that
was a miracle. And I could see other miracles like it happening. 'Cause, do, God certainly
does wonders in His own way. Now, I wouldn't, I wouldn't preach that to most people,
but, uh, you said you went to a parochial school, so that being the case, I knew you were a
Christian, you had to be, and, uh, uh,so be it.
husband 078 L. L. : What about your husband, was he a religious man?
M. C. : Well, he had belonged to the same church, but you know, there are people that go to
church that don't practice Christian ways. And, uh, uh, often they will say, "Well, don t
talk to me about that." You know, and they brush it off, but I don't brush it off because I
know God puts me into a sitch, situation so often like the lady at lunch-time today. Now I
invited her, I said, "Margaret," her name is Margaret too, and I said, "Margaret, if you ever
feel blue, if you ever feel that you need someone to help you," I said, "come and see me.
And she said, "That's the first thing I'm gonna do." And I said, "Well, don't come this
afternoon." [We laugh because Margaret is referring to our interview that is taking place in
the afternoon.]
L. L.: So,your husband, you don't think he was a very religious man?
M. C. : Well, it all depends now, as, as far as knowing the Bible he probably knows it better than I
do. But as far as practicing Christianity, that's a different thing. And of course, God wants
us to do both. Maybe I failed in some, in many respects, but I still believe there's nothing
like faith. So, that's my story.
pregnancy 299 L. L. : What about, urn, when you first found out you, you were pregnant with your son, how was
your, your doctor...?
M. C. : Did I what?
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index
medical care 305
children
husband
L. L. : When you first found out you were pregnant with your son. How was your medical care?
Do you remember that?
M. C. : Oh, my mother would always bejubilant about anything like that.
L. L. : And how 'bout your doctors?
M. C. : Oh, they were very good. We always had, uh had very good doctors. In fact, Don, when
Don was born, I had a woman doctor that was the first woman doctor in Seattle. Dr.
Maybel Seagrave. And, and she was wonderful. She was a great big lady, she lived in a
great big house down on Rainier Ave. I'll never forget, and she always dressed with a stiff,
uh, collar, white collar, and, uh, and, uh, a skirt and blouse, always a skirt and blouse, like
me I guess [laugh]. Anyway, but she was a wonderful person. Dr. Maybel Seagrave, the
first woman doctor in Seattle. That was interesting, and she was so nice. And I was in the
hospital with him for over 2 weeks. They don't do that any more. They put you in the
hospital and you're home, and the next day they expect you to take care of the baby right
away.
L. L. : What about, um, your pregnancy, did it go well?
M. C. : Oh, they, uh, I guess they went well, I don't underst, I don't look back on, uh, any
difficulties.
L. L. : And do you remember the, going into labor or anything?
M. C. : No, I don't. All I remember is that when Marilyn was born, the, uh, doctor had asked
me before it I would mind if, uh, some of the university medical students would come in
to, uh, see her...
L. L. : ...see her being born...
M. C. : ...see the birth.
L. L. : um-huh
M. C. : see the birth. One young man faint, fainted and knocked ajardiniere over [laugh], and I
heard the noise; and that's, but I never knew who the gentleman was. I said, "What's the
noise?"
L. L. : What was it like when your children were just infants?
M. C. : interns?
L. L. : infants. Were you really tired when they were re, just born, infants?
M. C. : Well, I took it in stride. I was proud. I was, I, I, I enjoyed my children. I enjoyed them a
lot, both of them.
345 L. L. : Would your husband help you out?
M. C. : He wasn't much with the children, no. No, he wasn't. I ca, I, I, I, don't remember that he
ever changed a pair of pants or anything like that. It was...
L. L. : Did he like to play with the children?
M. C. : Well, not as much as most, not as much as I had been used to. I think, to tell the truth, that
he always say himself as a child afterward, knowing that he had been removed from his
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334
index
conclict/
husband372
Korean War 388
own father. I, I don't know. You can't tell. But it was sad. And I always felt sorry for
somebody that couldn't enter in and be a whole-hearted, be a, a, a parent. That, and I've
seen so much of it with the children at school, you know. And my heart aches for the little
ones that, uh, feel rushed away, that they're only a nuisance], and often that happens.
Often, too often. And I'm always sorry.
L. L. : Do you think he, do you think he ever made your children feel like that, either Don or
Marilyn?
M. C. : Oh, Don and Marilyn are very close to their children.
L. L. : No did your husband ever make Don or Marilyn feel unwanted or unloved?
M. C. : Did he ever want them?
L, L. : No, did he ever make them feel unwanted?
M. C. : Oh, well I don't think, I don't think maybe that they ever felt unwanted. I think that they
felt that they'd rather have him play with them more or do things with them more. So...
L. L. : What's Don's relationship, w, what was his relationship like with his father before his
father died?
M. C. : Don?
L. L. : um-huh
M. C. : in relationship to his father? Well, he never approved of his father not accepting Marilyn,
that was the thing. It was a big, it bothered him. He's more like I am. And, uh, it always
bothered him.
He never had a close relationship after he returned from World War, uh, from the
Korean War, he spent a year on the front in active duty, and he knew what it was to be a
prisoner. Because he had been, his outfit had been imprisoned at Chan-Jin Dam by the
Chinese. And they had to fight their way back, out. And he said they said the Lord's
Prayer all the way down. And he was one of the few that survived. So you know how he
felt.
L. L. : What was that like for you knowing that your son was in Korea?
M. C. : But, he's always done a great deal with his own family. They think he is just about the
King Pin. Now his boys go to him for advice even though they're old themselves. And
he's very close to his family, very close. Well, he's close to Marilyn, and he's close to me.
So, none of us could complain about that, very close.
L. L. : What was it like having Don in Korea?
M. C. : It was terrible. I was teaching, and it, it was, uh, uh real, real bad for me because I had lost
most of the strength I had because I had Marilyn as a problem to handle by myself, mostly,
and I had, uh, I was trying to take university courses at night at school, and I was also...
Now, as far as active duty is concerned, did I tell you about being on the first, in 1926 and
27, being on the welfare committee here in the city? Well, that's another thing I did, uh,
for volunteer. And then, I don't know if I told you about, uh, I was on the first wil, well, I
was on the welfare commission dispensing, uh, money to needy recipients. There were 8 of
us on that committee; we met down at the county-city building. That was in 1926 and 27.
I quit when I became pregnant with Don.
service,;/work 425 L. L. : Was that volunteer work?
55
index
M. C. : Here in city.
L. L. : Was it volunteer?
M. C. : Yes, oh yes, all volunteer. And one of the men on that committee was a business man from
Rainier Beach, I'll never forget him because, he, at that time, had a one man drive against
smoking. And he put a fortune into it. He had cards printed, oh, and he lectured wherever
he could. I'll never forget that man's name. Now I can't remember, but it was something
like Briggs, but that doesn't seem quite right, but it was short like that. And then, I don't
know if I mentioned to you about being on the charting/ plotting board for military training.
In other words, we charted at the county-city building, now that was volunteer work
during World War II. I did that for months at, f, 4 hours in the evening- 8 to 12 o'clock.
Uh, we charted every plane.
end Tape 4. side B
Tape5
sideA
friends
WW1
M. C. : [continuing discussion her job charting planes]... above in the, in the, sky, where, wherever
the plane was going. That was a port of the federal survey, safety.
L. L. : Was that volunteer work also?
M. C. : Also, all volunteer. That was a rich experience, a very rich experience.
L. L. : Did you make some good friends during that time?
012 M. C. : Well, I took my friends with me because, uh, this Helen, she was with me. We both went
down to volunteer at the same time. Our husbands had both been gone, or, uh World War
I, uh, and so it was an active thing to do. It was very, I'd had lots of experiences. I
couldn't chart them all; I wouldn't want to list them al). But those are the ones that are
outstanding. I've always done a great deal of volunteer work in some respect. But I do
think the beginning with the Red Cross, making bandages out of old sheets to send to the
front.
024 L. L. : Was that World War I?
M. C. : World War I.
L. L. : How did you get involved with that?
M. C. : Well, because you were offered the opportunity to join the Junior Red Cross, and so we
joined, and that was one of your assignments was to work every week, you spent an hour
or so after school, cutting and wrapping these bandages for use over seas. It works itself
in. It's like volunteering when you're a teacher, of wrapping on doors to see who needed
coupons or to whom they were eligible. And then you stayed after school maybe for 3
hours to register the people that would get coupon books for sugar, for coffee, for shoes,
that too is interesting. Oh, I could go on and on.
L. L. : And you worked with that also?
M. C. : It's all volunteer work, all of it.
L. L. : How did you get involved in all of these volunteer programs?
M. C. : Well, it's the activity of what's going on at that age, and it gives you the urge that
everyone's doing something, and you want to do something too. So, it was evidently very
56